“Playing the sharp keys has been my one of my biggest challenges”
-Kennedy
Neal: As saxophone players, our horns are in Bb and Eb. For some reason we usually get used to playing in Bb and Eb and also in the ‘flat’ keys from early on in our musical development. The charts in jazz and even in concert music seem to not be in the sharp keys as much for beginning players. And if they are, it’s keys like G, D, A maybe, nothing too extreme! (mostly)
It seems like part of the reason is that beginning players on trumpet, clarinet, saxophone, flute will have an easier time in keys without lots of accidentals.
In contrast, orchestras often seem to have music that is in keys with sharps. I don’t personally play the violin or strings, so maybe a string player could let me know why that is the tendency.
However, if you played clarinet, flute, brass, etc in an orchestra that included winds, you might get used to the sharps. That’s what I did. The first two years I played music included playing with an orchestra.
So basically, it comes down to what you’re used to and comfortable with. You can develop that comfort with practice.
Just spend a little time on it and it will get easier.
What are your thoughts?
Neal,
Orchestral music and guitar-heavy Rock/Funk music favors sharp keys because of the tunings of the instruments. For instance, on a violin, I believe the open strings are G, D, A, E (ascending in 5ths). And guitar, as you may know, E,A, D, G, B, E (ascending, all 4ths, except G to B).
The open strings are naturally more resonant and richer sounding. Kind of like playing a middle or high Bb (on sax) using the “bis” key has a richer, clearer tone than playing same pitch using the “1 and 1” fingering.
Hey Rick,
Thanks, appreciate you sharing your knowledge on strings. That makes sense.
-Neal
Neal:
The reason string instrs play in sharp keys is because those keys are the open strings, hence they are easy to play in. Example violin has open strings on G-D-A & E. So when you put your fingers down on say the A string you get A, open, B 1st finger, C# 2nd, D 3rd finger. Then you can either play E with the 4th finger or you can play open E. Then it’s F# 1st finger, G# 2nd and A 3rd finger but close to the 2nd finger for the half step. The strings naturally play in sharp keys. That is why they invented wind instrs like the clarinet that are pitched in A. It makes it easier when the concert key is a sharp key. For example if the strings are playing in A concert that would put a Bb clarinet in the key of B, 5 #’s. But if you play that A concert piece on a A clarinet the transposition of up a minor 3rd places you in the good old key of C for the A clarinet. Which would you rather play in C with no #’s or b’s or B with 5#’s.
I hope this wasn’t to confusing. Actually I like playing in # keys on my tenor as well as the flat keys. Because of the transposition for alto and bari sax they are always being thrown in sharp keys.
Lots of singers and lots of show music is in # keys. It is not uncommon for example in the show The Music Man in the tune Shapoope we were playing country licks in F# on the clarinet. In Funny Girl a good portion of the song “People” was in B for clarinet. When I did The Four Tops Show I was playing in F# on the tenor. When I say playing in B or F# I don’t mean whole notes and half notes but 1/16ths, triplets etc. This why it’s good to shed in those keys and practice in them.
Back in the 30’s & 40’s a lot of blues like One O’ Clock Jump, Woodchopper’s Ball etc had the soloist playing blues in Db concert, Eb for the tenor. Today that isn’t as common but go out and play a big band gig and play those orginial charts, they are in Db not C. As was “Stardust and Body & Soul”, Db not C.
Hey Larry,
Thanks for writing this comment! You certainly told a lot in it. The thing about the A clarinet makes a lot of sense. I knew they existed, it just seemed strange to me, but having a clarinet pitched in A does make a lot of sense for an orchestral setting.
-Neal
Neal:
Well orchestral clarinet players always have a Bb and an A clarinet. The mpc is usable on both horns. Most orchestra clarinet players just take their mpc off the horn they are playing and put it on the horn they are going to. There are also trumpets pitched in various keys. Most orchestral tpt players have horns in Bb, C and some guys have a D tpt also. Clarinets seem to work best in Bb, A and Eb.
Did you know that Adolph Sax also designed saxophones in F and C for orchestral use. However they never really caught on. So if a sax player is needed for the rare orchestral piece calling for it they just have to deal with the key. However this is easier to do on saxophone than on clarinet because the saxophone is laid out in octaves making most of the fingering a lot easier than what the clarinet players have to go through. The clarinet is laid out in 12ths. So when you finger 1st finger E in the low register, when you depress the register key it becomes high B above the staff. To get E an octave over 1st line treble clef, you depress the register key and finger it like middle E on saxophone. This is part of the reason sax players have trouble when they start learning clarinet.
I started on clarinet, went to alto, than tenor and later bari and bass clarinet.
So I was going from a tighter, firmer embouchure and a more involved fingering system to a looser embouchure and a simpler fingering system.
Today I consider tenor my primary instrument with clarinet a close 2nd. Being able to play clarinet has been very helpful to me as I have been able to do a bunch of shows calling for a tenor sax/clarinet double.
Usually but not always the 1st reed is picc, flute, alto and maybe some clar. The 2nd reed book is usually alto, flute and maybe clarinet. In “Funny Girl” I played reed 2 and it was mostly alto, clar and a little bit of flute. The reed 3&4 books are usually tenor, clarinet, sometimes bass clar on reed 4 and sometimes a bit of flute. Reed 5 is usually bari, bass clar and maybe regular clar.
In big bands today it can be either all flutes, all clars with the bari playing bass clar or usually it’s 1st alto, picc, flute, 2nd alto, flute, maybe clar, both tenors clar maybe some flute, bari, bass clar maybe clarinet. This way when the saxes switch to woodwinds they can have the whole choir, picc, fl, clar 1 & 2 and bass clar. This makes a really nice blend.
Neal go to http://www.lastudiomusicians.org. Click on guys like Dan Higgins, Gene Ciprano, Sal Lozano, Joel Peskin, Gary Foster, Bob Shepard, etc. There are examples of them playing all the woodwinds. You’ll be surprised how well they do this. Check it and then get back to me.
One thing I noticed with some of the older shows. They sometimes have a divis
flute/clarinet part. Each part is on a different stave and in the correct key. This way you just pick your strongest horn to play the part. I have seen this in “Funny Girl”, “Guys and Dolls” and several other shows.
Take care.
Hey Larry, I feel like I should make a post out of your comments sometimes!
Those guys are very impressive. I had heard some stuff by Gary Foster and Bob Shepard before. Chuck Rainey (bass) is on that site too and has had a crazy career. It was really cool meeting him and talking. He’s got some stories!
Thanks for sharing what you know about playing music in those situations.
I actually started off on clarinet too and still play it sometimes. I have a flute, but wouldn’t consider myself very advanced on it. But clarinet I have put some time in.
Had seen c melody saxophones before, not sure if I had seen any in F. You read ‘The Devil’s Horn’? It’s all about the saxophone.
-Neal
Neal:
I actually have a copy of that book too. The author was at the Saxophone Symposium 2 yrs ago up at George Mason University near DC. He gave a presentation about his book and was very interesting.
I have seen C-melody saxes before but mostly hanging from the wall or ceiling at TGIF’s or Apple bee’s. Those are 2 restaurants on the East Coast, I don’t know if you have them out West. I have never seen F saxophones but the magazine Saxophone Journal big a big article about them complete with pictures several yrs ago. The who wrote the article Paul Cohen says he now has a couple F saxes in his collection. He’s a big collector and researcher.
Take care
Hey Larry,
That’s cool you met the author, I was curious as to what he was like in person.
There’s an exhibit at SFO of a bunch of saxophones on the wall. And yes, we have TGIF’s and Applebees on the west coast.
So I guess the F horns would be between tenor and bari or alto and soprano…. wild.
You’re right in your initial post Neal, it does come down to what you’re more familiar/comfortable with. I happened to begin my playing with cats who were more rock, blues, & funk oriented, so early on learned to play in sharp keys. To this day, it’s more effort to play some of the flat keys, especially when in a rock or blues environment. It’s a trip to sit in with a rock band (as I did recently), & play songs I’ve known from decades ago, but do them all a half-step flatter (sometimes guitar players like to tune down a half-step, so they can “sing more easily”), takes me to school! 😉
Thanks Steven. Yep, playing with guitar players can be interesting…. good to be comfortable around the keys though.
I think band pitch in Bb and Eb,
orchestral pitch in C and F, and
pop pitch in A and D.
F alto sax, Eb alto sax, D alto sax
These three alto saxophones makes
good.
That is strange. When I started playing in our school band (I play flute and switched to alto sax three days ago), my flute notes were mostly with flats; I don’t remember any major piece where we had sharps. But when I got my books and music for the alto saxophone, it was almost all in sharps. I never played in a real orchestra, so I have no idea how they do it ‘in the real world’, though. I initially thought this sharp-flat proportion has to do with the instrument’s key- flute plays in C, which alto sax transposes to Eb. But now I’m starting to wonder a bit… Guess Google’s gonna have to work overtime tonight! =)